Why did you start the podcast?
Sam: It was 2018 and Emma and I were sitting in the basement of my house in Manchester, having a brew and Emma was telling me about going to the doctor and the doctor asked her…
Emma: “What sort of contraception are you using” and I said "I think being a lesbian works quite well."
Sam: Emma said to me, “I’m more than 40 years old and I still have to come out on a weekly basis” because you don’t just come out once, you come out thousands of times. This got me thinking about the number of times people have to come out because it’s not just the big one to their parents, partners, family and friends, it’s to the taxi driver, the doctor, the nurse in the hospital, your colleagues and teachers at school. I know to some people sexuality isn’t a big thing anymore, but I thought, I don’t buy that because it’s still something people have to do day in, day out.
Emma: So, Sam said to me we should do a podcast about this and collect people’s coming out stories. We’ve now gone on to collect well over 100 coming out stories over the last two and a half years and what a journey it’s been right? When we put the book together we were asked to collect our favourite 15 stories. That’s like picking your own children! We’ve spoken to people from across the world with extraordinary stories, how can you pick your favourite? We knew we wanted to make it culturally diverse, with people from different religions and backgrounds.
OK, so we won’t ask for your favourites but do you have a story which made a massive impact on you or your listeners and readers?
Sam: There is such a beautiful thread that runs through all of them. Whatever happens good or bad, it always gets better. One of the first we ever recorded was Olivia’s. A young, lesbian woman who is now married with a baby. [Her story] talked about the moment she told her mother she was gay. They were sitting at opposite ends of the sofa and when she told her she was gay [Olivia] covered her face with her hands because she was so afraid her mother’s reaction would be seared into her memory. She didn’t want to remember a moment when her mother was horrified or shocked or in any way appalled, so she covered up her face. I thought what courage that takes to actually say out loud you were terrified.
Emma: The thing about Olivia’s story is that she is from intelligent, middle class, well-rounded, tolerant and liberal parents, but as LGBTQIA+ people, we’re still terrified as we’ve heard all the horror stories and always think the worst case scenario. We always think: I could lose the love of a parent, end up being thrown out or never speak to my family again. Fortunately this rarely happens.
The story that affected me the most — as it was gut-wrenching and was such an important story within the book — was Enock’s. He’s a man from Baptist parents who wasn’t just threatened by conversion therapy, he was sent to conversion summer camp. He was sent to have the gay prayed away for an entire summer and at the end pretened it had worked. He moved out of home and went to uni but got thrown out of uni because in America it’s illegal to do that if it's a Christian University. This is a beautiful, creative and lovable young man who has never spoken to his family since. However these stories do get better. Even though these awful things happen, these people go on to lead beautiful and fulfilling lives and find their chosen family.
What’s been the most surprising thing you’ve found since launching the podcast and publishing the book?
Sam: I think the thing that surprised me after speaking to people for the book and podcast was the thread of courage that runs through all the stories we’ve heard and had the pleasure of hearing. Whether it’s a 14-year-old talking to their parents for the first time about their sexuality or someone that has been married to someone of the opposite gender for many years and is now attracted to people of the same gender, it takes courage to sit down and have that conversation. It’s something straight people will never have to experience and it’s hard to imagine how terrifying that conversation may be because what’s on the line is losing love and respect for someone that you may love the most in the world.
Telling someone you love dearly — whether it’s a sibling, parent or close friend — something very personal about you that has caused them to recoil from you even though they'd be the one that is ignorant, I think that’s a really frightening conversation to have. The courage we hear about the stories is magnificent and people should think about how brave so many people are to have the conversation in the first place, let alone tell their story.
Emma: One of the things that surprises me the most is how thrilled, pleased and grateful people are to be able to tell their stories. For a lot of people I speak to, they haven’t remembered or gone through the important conversations they had with their parents for years. They have forgotten the stress and trauma they've been through, so it's been like therapy for them. Other people may have got comfort from listening, but the people telling their stories, worst case scenario, break down in tears remembering what happened, but they’re so grateful to talk about it. You’ve been there, done that, you’ve come out but actually there’s a lot to process that people take whole lifetimes to process.
Sam: I think it’s a case of feeling heard. A lot of people we’ve spoken to have never felt heard in their lives. Parents or loved ones didn't react in the way they’d hoped, even if further down the line that relationship resolves. It’s important to anyone in the world that your story is being told, listened to and heard. That’s what is really powerful, the power of the stories we’ve heard whether it’s people telling them or it’s us listening for the first time, that’s where the power is.
How can we be an ally to the community?
Emma: Don’t assume is the first bit of great advice for being an ally. One of the most important things is not to assume everyone you meet has a partner of the opposite gender. Do not assume someone’s gender because they may be gender fluid, trans or non-binary. Do respect people’s pronouns if you get it wrong, don't worry, apologise and make sure you get it right next time. I can’t think of anything more embarrassing to me than when people ask if I’m married or what my husband’s name is — it’s just cringey because now I’ve got to make them look like an idiot by saying “I’ve got a girlfriend actually and we don’t believe in marriage.” This is not a conversation I want to be having. So don’t assume, because not everyone is straight and cisgendered.
Sam: Educate yourself. Often I see comments on social media when a celebrity comes out as non-binary that say ‘I don’t understand,’ ‘What does this mean?’ ‘That never used to exist,’ but if we look back through ancient civilisation, a third gender or a gender fluidity has existed in so many cultures throughout the world for millennia. Educate yourself, do some research, it’s not a new thing and a whole world of fantastic stories and incredible people will be opened up to you.
Emma: Stop using gender for everything. Stop addressing a room as ladies and gentlemen or using he and she when you can refer to people you don’t know as they. My girlfriend is a teacher and they’re making students reports gender neutral to ensure children are not misgendered. These sorts of things are very easy to do, you just need to remember to keep doing them.
Sam: Call out homophobia and transphobia when you experience it. It can be awkward if it’s a family member and a difficult conversation to have if you’re around a dinner table, but actually find the courage and do it and it doesn't have to be done in a combative or aggressive way. There are plenty of things you can say to try and diffuse a situation that could end up being incendiary e.g. “Hey, do you know that’s not a cool thing to say” or “That could actually hurt a lot of people if they heard you talking in that way.”
Links
Twitter
Instagram
Spotify
